marvelfandomcom-20200222-history
Talk:Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 343
Cardiac Reference Hello ADour! I noticed you cleaned up my edit on the Cardiac listing. Thanks for that! It's probably worth noting that this appearance is a cameo, however. Wirtham is introduced in 342, appears in 343 with only half of his face depicted in the Cardiac costume in the final panel, and appears in full Cardiac costume for the first time in 344. Do you have any suggestions on how best to indicate that on the wiki page? I tried to look for other examples, but they seemed inconsistent. Thanks! Daeval (talk) 00:42, October 6, 2019 (UTC) :After finding and looking over the Marvel_Database:Appearance_Tags page, I suggest marking his appearance in 343 with '1st' and 'cameo' and his appearance in 344 with '1stFull'. :The first appearance on his character page should probably remain 344. :Daeval (talk) 00:53, October 6, 2019 (UTC) ::We consider cameos to be full appearances as opposed to minor appearances such as illusions, visions, dreams, drawings, statues, etc. -- Annabell (talk) 01:02, October 6, 2019 (UTC) :::Thanks for the info! :::If that's the case, then Carnage needs to be updated, as he has a similar half-face cameo in ASM 360, but 361 is listed as his first appearance. Venom also has a cameo in ASM 298, in which his costumed hands are depicted unobscured, though the page for that issue claims he's only in shadow. These are two of the characters I looked to when trying to figure out how to handle this one. :::For what it's worth, I think most fans/collectors make a distinction between first full and first cameo appearances, but I'll assume it's already been discussed here and honor the standards, if that's what they are. Is there a page where I can find these kinds of rulings, to avoid mis-edits in the future? :::Thanks! :::Daeval (talk) 01:20, October 6, 2019 (UTC) ::::I wouldn't say that his appearance in this issue is a cameo. While small, he had already been introduced in the previous issue, therefore it doesn't stand out. --The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 01:58, October 6, 2019 (UTC) :::::Wirtham is introduced in 342, but Cardiac is not depicted or mentioned until the final panel of 343, where only half of his face is shown. :::::To use Carnage as a reference point: :::::* Cletus Kasady is introduced in ASM 344 and 345, as Wirtham is in 342. :::::* Carnage (in costume) is introduced in 360. This is usually considered a cameo appearance, because he doesn't appear in full. It consists of a half-face shot similar to Cardiac's in 343, but also includes several other panels in which his arms are depicted. :::::* Carnage is depicted in full for the first time on the cover, and inside of, ASM 361. This is generally considered his first full appearance, and as such has been reprinted and is the most sought after by collectors. This is analogous to Cardiac's first full appearance on the cover of, and inside, ASM 344. :::::This is how it's represented on other sites, like Wikipedia and ComicBookRealm.com. :::::Daeval (talk) 02:16, October 6, 2019 (UTC) ::::::I understand that a distinction can be made between a character's tease and their first full appearance in their costumed identities, but these appearances are not cameos. A cameo consists of the brief appearance of a character that lacks any weight in the story, so their noteworthiness comes solely from the inherent importance of the character. Cardiac's role in this story is small but it's not a cameo, since it's the continuation of his subplot and sets up the next issue. --The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 03:49, October 6, 2019 (UTC) :::::::I think there's confusion here because there are two distinctions being made; first between a partial and full appearance, and second between a super-character and their alter-ego. To put the situation another way: Wirtham makes a full appearance in 342 and 343. Cardiac makes a partial appearance in 343, in which he is half-depicted in a single teaser panel and does nothing, and then a full appearance in 344. :::::::To again use Kasady/Carnage as a parallel: Kasady makes full appearances in 344, 345, and 349. Carnage makes a partial appearance in 360, and his first full appearance in 361. :::::::The difference between partial and full appearances, and between the appearances of super-characters and their alter-egos, have long been demonstrably significant to comic fans and collectors. For the sake of having the most useful and accurate information available on this site, I sought to indicate both with my initial edit. Daeval (talk) 05:42, October 6, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::I don't believe there's any confusion. While I understand what you're trying to say, we use to distinguish between a prior first appearance that was what we colloquially call a "false" appearance, that is to say, an appearances where the character's consciousness wasn't actually there or they were completely unidentifiable due to being obscured by shadow or something similar. An example would be Tenia Jean's photograph in prior to her actually appearing in . As such, Wirtham's first full appearance was in ; however, because he did not have a prior minor appearance, the "full" distinction was not necessary there. ::::::::That being said, I noted you are correct that Kasady identifies himself as Carnage in , and I'll also add that our system of definitions have been developed via community consensus and we're not here to conform to the nomenclature of any other sites that aren't part of our community, particularly if their standards drastically differ from our own. A perfect example of this would be with other sites insisting Riri Williams' first appearance, where she's named, appears in multiple panels, and has speaking lines, is somehow not a full appearance. -- Annabell (talk) 07:03, October 6, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::Thanks for that clarification. It seems I chose the wrong character to look to for reference, but it all makes sense now. Apologies if I've started a hubbub here, but at least the end result was two valid corrections. :) :::::::::Speaking of reference, is there a page where the community's standards and definitions for things like this are documented? I imagine such a page exists, but I wasn't able to find it via search. It would obviously be extremely helpful for new would-be contributors such as myself, and anyone looking to do serious research here, especially in cases where the community has settled on standards that differ from those of the hobby as a whole. :::::::::Edit: After a bit more poking around, unless I've really missed it, I think this clarification should probably live in a "First Appearances" section on the Marvel_Database:Appearance_Tags page, to spare future editors from stumbling into this as I did. I'll write up a little proposal in the talk section there and see where that goes. Daeval (talk) 07:26, October 6, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::::Sounds good. Marvel Database:Policies and Guidelines is a good place to start, it's the parent page of that tags article, has recently been overhauled to better serve the community, and explains some of our most frequently asked policies, as well as features article guidelines, a manual of style, naming conventions, etc.-- Annabell (talk) 09:31, October 6, 2019 (UTC)